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	<title>Comments on: Creating a Better Game Development Framework: Or What Games Can Learn From Web 2.0</title>
	<atom:link href="http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/</link>
	<description>Gamedev 2.0</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 13:45:59 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Chris Lloyd</title>
		<link>http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/comment-page-1/#comment-4730</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lloyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 02:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/01/creating-a-better-game-development-framework-or-what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/#comment-4730</guid>
		<description>Sounds like MVC for game dev. Nice, I like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like MVC for game dev. Nice, I like it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Troy Gilbert &#187; Flex rhymes with&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/comment-page-1/#comment-732</link>
		<dc:creator>Troy Gilbert &#187; Flex rhymes with&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 03:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/01/creating-a-better-game-development-framework-or-what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/#comment-732</guid>
		<description>[...] You know, kinda like exactly what I said would be the perfect game development environment back in March 2006. I sung the praises of the mindshift in software development brought on my &#8220;web 2.0&#8243; where production-quality development truly is agile: they divide the problem into structure, behavior and styling. Of course. The Holy Trinity of Interaction. You find it time and time again when you dissect anything one would describe as interactive: model-view-controller, input-process-output, listen-think-speak&#8230; structure, behavior and styling. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] You know, kinda like exactly what I said would be the perfect game development environment back in March 2006. I sung the praises of the mindshift in software development brought on my &#8220;web 2.0&#8243; where production-quality development truly is agile: they divide the problem into structure, behavior and styling. Of course. The Holy Trinity of Interaction. You find it time and time again when you dissect anything one would describe as interactive: model-view-controller, input-process-output, listen-think-speak&#8230; structure, behavior and styling. [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Found: That game framework I was looking for&#8230; at Troy Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Found: That game framework I was looking for&#8230; at Troy Gilbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 May 2006 23:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/01/creating-a-better-game-development-framework-or-what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/#comment-30</guid>
		<description>[...] Not too long ago I posted about my desire for a game framework that was as useful as the frameworks enjoyed by the whole &#8220;web 2.0&#8243; crowd. Call it envy, if you will. Those web 2.0 geeks have great toys to play with. The concluding paragraph of my post pondered, &#8220;Maybe I shoud just shut-up and start using Flash&#8230;&#8221; Well, I did. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Not too long ago I posted about my desire for a game framework that was as useful as the frameworks enjoyed by the whole &#8220;web 2.0&#8243; crowd. Call it envy, if you will. Those web 2.0 geeks have great toys to play with. The concluding paragraph of my post pondered, &#8220;Maybe I shoud just shut-up and start using Flash&#8230;&#8221; Well, I did. [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Martyn Garcia</title>
		<link>http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Martyn Garcia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 21:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/01/creating-a-better-game-development-framework-or-what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Hey,
You have a great idea!  We&#039;ve started a game development framework similar in design to ruby on rails.  We call the framework &#039;shattered&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey,<br />
You have a great idea!  We&#8217;ve started a game development framework similar in design to ruby on rails.  We call the framework &#8217;shattered&#8217;.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andrew Wooldridge</title>
		<link>http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Wooldridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Apr 2006 20:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/01/creating-a-better-game-development-framework-or-what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/#comment-22</guid>
		<description>I totally like the way you are thinking. I&#039;m coming at the problem from the other side. I&#039;m an HTML/Javascript developer who wants to build games, but trying to approach it from the HTML/DOM/CSS side. It would be so amazing cool to have like a &quot;games markup language&quot; that allowed you to define stages, levels, genre, collision detection, etc. etc. I hope you continue to persue this idea. Have you looked at Laszlo? It&#039;s a platform that allows you to develop web applications and output them to either Flash or DHTML. If that could be adapted for games (you can create your own tags, etc.) that would be perfect for what you might be looking for. http://www.openlaszlo.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally like the way you are thinking. I&#8217;m coming at the problem from the other side. I&#8217;m an HTML/Javascript developer who wants to build games, but trying to approach it from the HTML/DOM/CSS side. It would be so amazing cool to have like a &#8220;games markup language&#8221; that allowed you to define stages, levels, genre, collision detection, etc. etc. I hope you continue to persue this idea. Have you looked at Laszlo? It&#8217;s a platform that allows you to develop web applications and output them to either Flash or DHTML. If that could be adapted for games (you can create your own tags, etc.) that would be perfect for what you might be looking for. <a href="http://www.openlaszlo.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.openlaszlo.org</a></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Duncan Suttles</title>
		<link>http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan Suttles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/01/creating-a-better-game-development-framework-or-what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/#comment-18</guid>
		<description>We are trying to create a integrated development and deployment framework for games using a variety of standards and psuedo standards including XAML , XNA , HLA , Jabber , Grid Services.  The high level standards aspect seems to be the key but the problem is finding a viable sustainability strategy. Our current solution is to link into DOD sponsored initiatives such as BOM, X3D,  and SEDRIS .  We would love to hear from anyone actually interested in creating high level standards for games.

duncan@magnetargames.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are trying to create a integrated development and deployment framework for games using a variety of standards and psuedo standards including XAML , XNA , HLA , Jabber , Grid Services.  The high level standards aspect seems to be the key but the problem is finding a viable sustainability strategy. Our current solution is to link into DOD sponsored initiatives such as BOM, X3D,  and SEDRIS .  We would love to hear from anyone actually interested in creating high level standards for games.</p>
<p><a href="mailto:duncan@magnetargames.com">duncan@magnetargames.com</a></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: More on a &#8220;new&#8221; GameDev Framework&#8230; at Troy Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/comment-page-1/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>More on a &#8220;new&#8221; GameDev Framework&#8230; at Troy Gilbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 19:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/01/creating-a-better-game-development-framework-or-what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/#comment-5</guid>
		<description>[...] Register        &#171; Creating a Better Game Development Framework: Or What Games Can Learn From Web 2.0 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Register        &laquo; Creating a Better Game Development Framework: Or What Games Can Learn From Web 2.0 [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dranore</title>
		<link>http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/comment-page-1/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>Dranore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 02:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troygilbert.com/2006/03/01/creating-a-better-game-development-framework-or-what-games-can-learn-from-web-20/#comment-4</guid>
		<description>Hehehe... I like you.

You&#039;re talking directly into my brain. That&#039;s hard to relate I guess. I guess I&#039;m a wannabe game developer/designer. But I&#039;ve had some ideas akin to what you&#039;re talking about. I&#039;m looking for web design work as I write this cause I don&#039;t have the portfolio mustard to get into professional game design yet. I&#039;d been neglecting my web development skills the past while so I&#039;ve been doing alot of reading about Web 2.0 recently (currently learning Ruby on Rails and AJAX and what not)... which I guess is what I mean about &quot;speaking directly into my brain&quot;.  I sort of have a constant background noise about game design running and since I&#039;ve been doing so much web development reading I&#039;m completely on the same page.

My own work has been more looking towards a higher level framework... but that fundamentally relates back to the groundwork it is based on... which at this point meant I was thinking from scratch because there isn&#039;t a solid framework standard. As such I&#039;d been pondering your points myself, but you&#039;ve definitely woven them together (at least for me).

I think the meat of it is an absolute lack of standards. There just aren&#039;t any. There&#039;s no WC3 of game development languages that aren&#039;t for the web. Standardization is a multisided die. You end up with benefits as well as restrictions in standards.

I think higher-level tools is where the empowerment comes from, but again what is a higher-level tool without a common set of standards to be built off of? Something very restrictive and not as useful. Flash can do some nice things for the web but it&#039;s far from open. Sure I know how to use it, yes I can write basic actionscript, but most stuff doesn&#039;t need it and it&#039;s not ideal for all web development.

I think the problem is systemic. If we look at games from the base level: Hardware. We immediately run into a problem. Different hardware manufacturers start to support advanced features but don&#039;t make those features commonly availible. They stick them in propietary API&#039;s versus the painfully in need of updating OpenGL standard. Obviously graphics hardware doesn&#039;t sport the actual gameplay, but it&#039;s an example of part of the issue. If we move beyond hardware we get to platforms. Game consoles, computers (mac and PC), cellphones, handhelds. So many platforms!

Going back to the web comparison, now I&#039;m only 22, but my impression was that the web was originally only intended for landbound computers and eventually home computers. So it originally only had to support a few operating systems. And even then it&#039;s not untill recently that webbrowsers have actually started to HAVE standards that were reliable... even as short as 5-10 years ago that wasn&#039;t the case at all. And then cellphones and other platforms now have to confrom to the established standards... but they came later. Now I&#039;ve not followed game development for too many years, but I&#039;ve never been aware of too much of a push to standardize much of anything in games. I feel it kind of stems from the same attitude that permeates most games traditionally: &quot;I&#039;m a teenage boy, and what&#039;s mine is mine! Fuck the rest of you! Our&#039;s is way better and &lt;i&gt;bigger&lt;/i&gt;!&quot;

There&#039;s a handfull of dominant engines in the market and they&#039;re all so proprietary. For example, I grew up modding HL, so I know HL&#039;s tools... Hammer, a smidgeon of 3DSMax, proprietary scripting for their engince, and Photoshop (fortunately Photoshop is a nice standard). But Hammer and their scripting language aren&#039;t useful elsewhere... and even 3DSMax to a certain extent... sure if you know them... you can apply CONCEPTS to other tools but it can be a bitch to learn the new tools because they&#039;re the same.... but different... and sometimes COMPLETELY different.  The tools that make content for games are even becoming propietary (at least in aligences: Valve and XSI for example) Games have their own engines for everything... and sometimes you need that... but what they make doesn&#039;t contribute to the whole. There just aren&#039;t enough people like us saying, &quot;Wait guys! All this stuff is great and all but we&#039;re specializing instead of standardizing!&quot;. Some of that is obviously some of my person frustration, but I can only use my own expereinces as examples.

Getting back to my previous point, as the web was struggling for standardization... it doesn&#039;t feel like gaming has tried to do that so much. There have been different efforts at different points and time, but it&#039;s definitely not an industry trend. People have been building engines (as you poigniently noted - &quot;browsers&quot;) for a long time but the similarity ends there because as you duely noted there is no actual equivalent in games.

I think you&#039;ve basically outlined a grocery list for the industry:

1) A standard upon which to base Games (&quot;Browsers&quot;) - DOM
2) A standard markup to relate the functional mechanical bits to the engine - XHTML
3) A standard markup to relate the aesthetic parts to the engine - CSS2

Whatever the DOM equivalent for gaming - Let&#039;s do what the tech industry does best - MAKE AN ACRONYM - G.O.M. The Game Object Model needs to be flexible to allow the various languages out there to interact with it. We need to start to see more open engines based on a GOM. Frankly game mechanisms are standard and need to be standardized. You touched on this and this has been where my own research and development has been... the stanard mechanics of games. Games have common elements - UI Bits, Common Statistics, Common Controllers. The industry has spent a long, long, long, long time (all of it&#039;s history) rewriting alot of the same code instead of building a standard framework of game mechanisms that can be expounded up and overridden for specific uses.

XHTML and CSS - They&#039;re standard for web, but I agree that the lack of standard base prevents even the practical discussion of a game equivalent untill such a standard starts to take shape.

Anyways... alot of that is regurgitation mixed with fresh food... which I guess doesn&#039;t always taste so great... but it helps me digest what you&#039;re saying. Again... definitely on the same page.

Gonna keep this going upstairs in a &quot;spin cycle&quot;...

-C. Richardson</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hehehe&#8230; I like you.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re talking directly into my brain. That&#8217;s hard to relate I guess. I guess I&#8217;m a wannabe game developer/designer. But I&#8217;ve had some ideas akin to what you&#8217;re talking about. I&#8217;m looking for web design work as I write this cause I don&#8217;t have the portfolio mustard to get into professional game design yet. I&#8217;d been neglecting my web development skills the past while so I&#8217;ve been doing alot of reading about Web 2.0 recently (currently learning Ruby on Rails and AJAX and what not)&#8230; which I guess is what I mean about &#8220;speaking directly into my brain&#8221;.  I sort of have a constant background noise about game design running and since I&#8217;ve been doing so much web development reading I&#8217;m completely on the same page.</p>
<p>My own work has been more looking towards a higher level framework&#8230; but that fundamentally relates back to the groundwork it is based on&#8230; which at this point meant I was thinking from scratch because there isn&#8217;t a solid framework standard. As such I&#8217;d been pondering your points myself, but you&#8217;ve definitely woven them together (at least for me).</p>
<p>I think the meat of it is an absolute lack of standards. There just aren&#8217;t any. There&#8217;s no WC3 of game development languages that aren&#8217;t for the web. Standardization is a multisided die. You end up with benefits as well as restrictions in standards.</p>
<p>I think higher-level tools is where the empowerment comes from, but again what is a higher-level tool without a common set of standards to be built off of? Something very restrictive and not as useful. Flash can do some nice things for the web but it&#8217;s far from open. Sure I know how to use it, yes I can write basic actionscript, but most stuff doesn&#8217;t need it and it&#8217;s not ideal for all web development.</p>
<p>I think the problem is systemic. If we look at games from the base level: Hardware. We immediately run into a problem. Different hardware manufacturers start to support advanced features but don&#8217;t make those features commonly availible. They stick them in propietary API&#8217;s versus the painfully in need of updating OpenGL standard. Obviously graphics hardware doesn&#8217;t sport the actual gameplay, but it&#8217;s an example of part of the issue. If we move beyond hardware we get to platforms. Game consoles, computers (mac and PC), cellphones, handhelds. So many platforms!</p>
<p>Going back to the web comparison, now I&#8217;m only 22, but my impression was that the web was originally only intended for landbound computers and eventually home computers. So it originally only had to support a few operating systems. And even then it&#8217;s not untill recently that webbrowsers have actually started to HAVE standards that were reliable&#8230; even as short as 5-10 years ago that wasn&#8217;t the case at all. And then cellphones and other platforms now have to confrom to the established standards&#8230; but they came later. Now I&#8217;ve not followed game development for too many years, but I&#8217;ve never been aware of too much of a push to standardize much of anything in games. I feel it kind of stems from the same attitude that permeates most games traditionally: &#8220;I&#8217;m a teenage boy, and what&#8217;s mine is mine! Fuck the rest of you! Our&#8217;s is way better and <i>bigger</i>!&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a handfull of dominant engines in the market and they&#8217;re all so proprietary. For example, I grew up modding HL, so I know HL&#8217;s tools&#8230; Hammer, a smidgeon of 3DSMax, proprietary scripting for their engince, and Photoshop (fortunately Photoshop is a nice standard). But Hammer and their scripting language aren&#8217;t useful elsewhere&#8230; and even 3DSMax to a certain extent&#8230; sure if you know them&#8230; you can apply CONCEPTS to other tools but it can be a bitch to learn the new tools because they&#8217;re the same&#8230;. but different&#8230; and sometimes COMPLETELY different.  The tools that make content for games are even becoming propietary (at least in aligences: Valve and XSI for example) Games have their own engines for everything&#8230; and sometimes you need that&#8230; but what they make doesn&#8217;t contribute to the whole. There just aren&#8217;t enough people like us saying, &#8220;Wait guys! All this stuff is great and all but we&#8217;re specializing instead of standardizing!&#8221;. Some of that is obviously some of my person frustration, but I can only use my own expereinces as examples.</p>
<p>Getting back to my previous point, as the web was struggling for standardization&#8230; it doesn&#8217;t feel like gaming has tried to do that so much. There have been different efforts at different points and time, but it&#8217;s definitely not an industry trend. People have been building engines (as you poigniently noted &#8211; &#8220;browsers&#8221;) for a long time but the similarity ends there because as you duely noted there is no actual equivalent in games.</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;ve basically outlined a grocery list for the industry:</p>
<p>1) A standard upon which to base Games (&#8220;Browsers&#8221;) &#8211; DOM<br />
2) A standard markup to relate the functional mechanical bits to the engine &#8211; XHTML<br />
3) A standard markup to relate the aesthetic parts to the engine &#8211; CSS2</p>
<p>Whatever the DOM equivalent for gaming &#8211; Let&#8217;s do what the tech industry does best &#8211; MAKE AN ACRONYM &#8211; G.O.M. The Game Object Model needs to be flexible to allow the various languages out there to interact with it. We need to start to see more open engines based on a GOM. Frankly game mechanisms are standard and need to be standardized. You touched on this and this has been where my own research and development has been&#8230; the stanard mechanics of games. Games have common elements &#8211; UI Bits, Common Statistics, Common Controllers. The industry has spent a long, long, long, long time (all of it&#8217;s history) rewriting alot of the same code instead of building a standard framework of game mechanisms that can be expounded up and overridden for specific uses.</p>
<p>XHTML and CSS &#8211; They&#8217;re standard for web, but I agree that the lack of standard base prevents even the practical discussion of a game equivalent untill such a standard starts to take shape.</p>
<p>Anyways&#8230; alot of that is regurgitation mixed with fresh food&#8230; which I guess doesn&#8217;t always taste so great&#8230; but it helps me digest what you&#8217;re saying. Again&#8230; definitely on the same page.</p>
<p>Gonna keep this going upstairs in a &#8220;spin cycle&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>-C. Richardson</p>
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